Transcript for Interview with Katharina Volk on Roman Epicureanism

0. Introduction

I try to stay as far away from politics as humanly possible. I don't vote. I don't protest. I don't follow the news. All of it just seems so burdensome and unproductive. This is why Epicureanism comes so naturally to me, because one of its key doctrines is to withdraw from political life and tend to your own garden. The idea is to not get too caught up in worldly affairs, and just build a small community of like-minded people.

You can imagine my surprise then when I learned of Epicureanism popularity among the political elite in the late Roman Republic. And we aren't just talking about fringe senators who are pacifists or who are forced into political life. We're talking about people like Caesar, who many speculate was an epicurean. We're talking about people like Cassius, who allegedly justified his assassination of Caesar on Epicureanism.

How did a philosophy whose key doctrine is to abstain from politics become one of the dominant philosophies for politicians? This is a central question I discuss with a leading classicist Katharina Volk. My hope is that by understanding why even Epicureans decided to enter the political world, I can see if I'm overlooking any reasons to engage in politics myself.

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1. What is Epicureanism?

Johnathan Bi: Let's begin with Epicureanism itself. What are its major doctrines? 

Katharina Volk: Right. So Epicureanism is another Hellenistic philosophy. So it comes from the late fourth century in Athens. And like many other philosophies, including stoicism also, has this idea that there is one highest good, the Summum Bonum, which is basically the key. So if you have that, you have made it, you have achieved happiness or eudaemonia, and for the epicureans, this is pleasure.

Johnathan Bi: Right. It sounds like my type of philosophy.

Katharina Volk: Exactly. Now, don't get too excited though because the epicureans actually have a kind of austere and minimalist view of pleasure. So while pleasure does include sort of things that people normally consider pleasures, especially pleasures that are perceived by the senses, the highest pleasure, according to Epicurus, is actually the absence of pain. So he talks about a state of absence of physical pain and mental disturbance, because mental disturbance is also a form of pain. So ideally you want to be in this state where you have no physical pain and where you're not upset about anything.

Johnathan Bi: And what are the other pleasures? Are they just the everyday pleasures we think of in addition to pursuing the absence of pain or? 

Katharina Volk: Yeah. This is actually a very good question because it's not actually all that clear what would qualify as an epicurean pleasure, but it certainly things that I mentioned are things like food, drink, and sex. So you can be sure that those qualify. Other sort of sense perceptions like beautiful sights and sounds.

Johnathan Bi: Aesthetics, right.

Katharina Volk: But it's getting very, very unclear there, and scholars of Epicureanism are actually having a hard time with that. But the most important thing is really this sort of state where you're not in pain and where you're not upset by anything.

Johnathan Bi: I see. Let's talk about the social dimension, or lack thereof, of Epicureanism. On one hand, it seems to emphasize friendship very highly, which of course is a social dimension. On the other hand, it consoles withdrawal from the community. So, so help us tease out the social dimension here.

Katharina Volk: Right. There's a sort of an ideal of self-sufficiency and this ideal that you can provide everything you need. So, for example, you can provide enough food to still hunger. You don't have to have fancy food. You don't have to have fancy drink. You don't have to have a fancy house. And frankly, you don't need a lot of all sorts of things. And if you get into the wrong mindset, you might get upset if you don't have them. Like, what if you feel like you can only have caviar and champagne? Then the day when you can't have caviar and champagne, you're gonna get upset. So just understand that you don't need caviar and champagne. Similarly, you might... Or a fancy clothing, or a high paying job, or political power. So there are all sorts of things that you don't need to achieve pleasure, and hence, happiness.

Katharina Volk: And in fact, that are sort of a trap, because once you think you want them and you can't get them, then you get upset. And then you start fretting about all these sorts of things. And so one of the things that you don't need and that you would just fret about is political life. Who wants to be a politician? I mean, it's just incredibly annoying, dangerous, heartbreak. You're gonna drive yourself crazy. Just don't do it. Withdraw. Live a simple life. The epicureans are also not very much into marriage and children because you know what kind of trouble all that is. And so what they like is to hang out with like-minded people in epicurean communities, with their friends. Don't harm anybody. Live a hidden life. Live a simple life. Talk about philosophy and be happy, I mean, ideally.

Johnathan Bi: Right. So you really weren't kidding when you told me not to get too excited, because it seems it's more about restraints than it is about indulgence.

Katharina Volk: Exactly.

Johnathan Bi: Because a key doctrine is that your expectations adjust. And so the idea is almost like, let's take the bare essentials of what you need and let's satisfy that. And more importantly, let's not make sure you desire anything more, right?