Transcript for Interview with Rachana Kamtekar on Plato's Virtue Ethics

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 1. Virtue vs. External Goods

Johnathan Bi: So what is virtue and what is virtue ethics?

Rachana Kamtekar: Virtue, I think, is well defined by Aristotle as a disposition that inclines one to decide, to make decisions. So Aristotle's definition of virtue helps us see that both reason and inclination are involved in virtue and it's expressed in decisions and then in actions.

Johnathan Bi: Aristotle, let me paint a spectrum, believes that for all these different interpretations, goods matter for the good life in addition to virtue, right? The Stoics are on the opposite side of the spectrum who think that virtue only can bring about happiness. Where does Plato fall in the spectrum?

Rachana Kamtekar: So I think Plato is more like Aristotle than like the Stoics. He thinks that virtue is supremely good, but he doesn't think that non-virtue goods are indifferent with respect to happiness. He thinks that it's better to have virtue and health than to have virtue and sickness. Having these external goods or the non-virtue, non-intellectual goods, one way that that contributes to happiness is by increasing the scope of virtue. So one can do more, a virtuous person can do more if she's healthy or if she's wealthy, so she can express her virtue more. Whereas the Stoics do not recognize degrees of happiness or degrees of virtue. And so they think, well, you have reached the ceiling of happiness when you have virtue, whatever you do. Whereas I think both Plato and Aristotle think you can be happier or less happy depending on how much you can express your virtue.

Johnathan Bi: Right. And when you say express your virtue, there's kind of two ways one it can be expressed. So one idea is that without money, I just can't be generous, right? So the virtue of generosity can't be expressed. Another way is more money allows the same expression of generosity to be more impactful because I'm giving away instead of $10, I'm giving away $100. What did you have in mind in terms of expression?

Rachana Kamtekar: I had in mind the second.

Johnathan Bi: Right.

Rachana Kamtekar: Aristotle uses that example of generosity and private property, and I think that's a little bit of Aristotle's class prejudice at work because of course you can be generous with things other than private property with time, for example. Yeah.

Johnathan Bi: Right, I see.

Rachana Kamtekar: So I really did have in mind the scope of action being enhanced with the possession of external goods.

Johnathan Bi: What arguments does Plato give us to even put virtue at this high of a level, even if it's not as high as the Stoics?

Rachana Kamtekar: So one argument he makes in the Meno and also in the Euthydemus is the argument about misuse. So it seems that external goods absent virtue can be misused. In the Euthydemus, he specifically mentions wisdom, so external goods and maybe even qualities of soul like natural courage or natural moderation can be misused. And so correct use requires virtue and that can correct use of natural qualities of the soul require wisdom.

Johnathan Bi: Right. So the argument is any other good you can think of, even something like health, if you're not virtuous, more health can be a bad thing. And the lack of health, if you are virtuous, doesn't necessarily have to derail your life if you are virtuous. And so virtue is the only like monotonic good, like the more the better, right? It's that kind of intuition. It's the only good that, like if a genie were to come out of the bottle, the only thing I could wish for that would necessarily make my life better would be virtue, which is kind of like how do we use these other goods? Is that kind of intuition?

Rachana Kamtekar: That's right. That's right.

Johnathan Bi: But if that's the case, I think there's many domains in our life, what we lack is not the knowledge of using them, it's the good itself. So let's take something very trivial like breathing, right? Like if you can't breathe, if you don't have air, most people don't need more virtue as it relates to how do I breathe, they need the air itself, right? And I'm sure there's a gradation of goods where there's other things like power, right? Which is on the other extreme end where most people are going to probably misuse that. So my question is, there does seem to be a certain set of goods that most normal people know how to use and what they need are those goods. How would Socrates respond to that?