Transcript of Interview with Thomas Pangle on Great Men's Desire for Fame

An Interview with Thomas Pangle on Great Men

1. Washington and Fame

1.1 Washington’s Love of Fame

Johnathan Bi: Hamilton wrote in the Federalist Papers that the love of fame is the ruling passion of the noblest minds. Hamilton was obviously Washington’s aid and you speculate he might have had Washington in mind there. Tell us about Washington’s love of fame.

Thomas Pangle: It was a strong part of his makeup, his personality. But I think he was very clear about the fact that the love of fame correctly understood is the love of being famous for admirable qualities, not just being well-known.

Johnathan Bi: Smith said that in the theory of moral sentiments, we not want to only be sympathized with, but sympathizable.

Thomas Pangle: Yes.

Johnathan Bi: In order to — that is to say we want the good recognition but also to be good. So you’ve kind of qualified the fame part. The part I still have problem with in what Hamilton said is ruling passion. That’s where someone like Plato would disagree with him, right? The noblest minds, their ruling passion — they might still want recognition, but their ruling passion is reason. Is that a theoretical difference between Hamilton and Plato?

Thomas Pangle: Well, right. I think Hamilton has a somewhat too overly two-dimensional concept. I don’t think he’s thought it through in the way I think probably Washington had. That you don’t want just the fame of everyone thinking you’re a terrific person. You want a sense and that confirms my own judgment on myself. Another way of putting this I think is that for someone like Washington, and I think he saw this very much in the figure of Cato, Cato is concerned with fame, but he’s concerned above all with being the kind of person he wants to be and getting confirmation of that through the fame.

Johnathan Bi: The great man’s desire for glory is a bit odd because he desires it from usually lesser men. One philosophical manifestation of this is the master-slave dialectic in Hegel and for our audience, the master fails to get the kind of recognition that he wants even after he defeats the person and renders him a slave.

Thomas Pangle: Precisely because he’s made him a slave. And a slave cannot give the master the glory that he desires.

Johnathan Bi: Is the great man tragic in this way as well?